Solver's Forum
Messages in this topic - RSS

Home » Logic Problem Exchange » Some help?

Logic Problem fans, discuss solutions and get solving help.
2/5/2016 1:34:31 PM

dks123
dks123
Posts: 4
I'm new to logic puzzles and to this site. I was wondering if anyone would help me with how to interpret a clue. This involves a card game with five cards assigned five different values. The values are 9, 7, 5, 3, and 1.


Here is the clue: The Factory (which doesn't direct everyone to rotate their hands to the left), Babette's card, and the one that tells players to discard one card are the three lowest-scoring cards, in some order.


A later clue states that the card that directs each player to give his or her hand to the player to the left is worth fewer points that one other card.


My question is this? What can I assume about the value of the card that directs each player give his or her hand to the player to the left?

2/5/2016 2:44:08 PM

Semipro
Semipro
Posts: 292
The first clue is no help with the value of this card, not without more information about some other cards. The second clue tells you that the card doesn't have a value of 9 points. If the second clue said the card was worth fewer points than EXACTLY one other card, you'd know that this card was the 7-pointer, but if it doesn't say that, all you know (yet) is that it isn't the 9.

2/5/2016 3:17:19 PM

dks123
dks123
Posts: 4
Semipro wrote:
The first clue is no help with the value of this card, not without more information about some other cards. The second clue tells you that the card doesn't have a value of 9 points. If the second clue said the card was worth fewer points than EXACTLY one other card, you'd know that this card was the 7-pointer, but if it doesn't say that, all you know (yet) is that it isn't the 9.



I agree. However, the answer states that from this clue I can conclude that the value of the Factory card cannot be 1, 3, or 5, and then goes on to say that because it can't be 9, the value must be 7. But that didn't go along with how I have always interpreted clues like that. It has me confused.

2/5/2016 3:40:01 PM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
The way I take it, "The Factory, "Discard One Card" and Babette's, are 1, 3, and 5, in some order. "Move to the Left" is 1, 3, 5 or 7, the way I see it. It's "less than something." DKS, I don't know what you or the editors mean by "The Factory can't be 1, 3 or 5." That first clue sounds as if The Factory MUST BE 1, 3 or 5. The Factory is NOT "rotate to the left." Did you mis-type? Did you mean to write about the "rotate to the left" card, as opposed to the "Factory" card? In either case, I would agree that we don't have enough info, because we didn't get a clue stating specifically that the "hands to the left" card is lower than EXACTLY 1 card.

Which magazine did this problem come from? Editors, maybe you can fix the wording of the clues the next time you reprint this puzzle?

--
Amy

2/5/2016 3:52:02 PM

dks123
dks123
Posts: 4
Amy Lowenstein wrote:
The way I take it, "The Factory, "Discard One Card" and Babette's, are 1, 3, and 5, in some order. "Move to the Left" is 1, 3, 5 or 7, the way I see it. It's "less than something." DKS, I don't know what you or the editors mean by "The Factory can't be 1, 3 or 5." That first clue sounds as if The Factory MUST BE 1, 3 or 5. The Factory is NOT "rotate to the left." Did you mis-type? Did you mean to write about the "rotate to the left" card, as opposed to the "Factory" card? In either case, I would agree that we don't have enough info, because we didn't get a clue stating specifically that the "hands to the left" card is lower than EXACTLY 1 card.

Which magazine did this problem come from? Editors, maybe you can fix the wording of the clues the next time you reprint this puzzle?



Amy-in-PA,

Thank you, I did mis-type. That is what the answer states. Rotate to the left must have the value of 7. It came from a back issue Original Logic Problems of February 2011.

2/5/2016 6:32:04 PM

Semipro
Semipro
Posts: 292
Amy Lowenstein wrote:
DKS, I don't know what you or the editors mean by "The Factory can't be 1, 3 or 5." That first clue sounds as if The Factory MUST BE 1, 3 or 5.
Absolutely agree. There must be a mistake in the clue or in the solution paragraph.

2/8/2016 3:22:18 PM

LogicEditor
LogicEditor
Posts: 89
dks123 wrote:
Amy Lowenstein wrote:
The way I take it, "The Factory, "Discard One Card" and Babette's, are 1, 3, and 5, in some order. "Move to the Left" is 1, 3, 5 or 7, the way I see it. It's "less than something." DKS, I don't know what you or the editors mean by "The Factory can't be 1, 3 or 5." That first clue sounds as if The Factory MUST BE 1, 3 or 5. The Factory is NOT "rotate to the left." Did you mis-type? Did you mean to write about the "rotate to the left" card, as opposed to the "Factory" card? In either case, I would agree that we don't have enough info, because we didn't get a clue stating specifically that the "hands to the left" card is lower than EXACTLY 1 card.

Which magazine did this problem come from? Editors, maybe you can fix the wording of the clues the next time you reprint this puzzle?



Amy-in-PA,

Thank you, I did mis-type. That is what the answer states. Rotate to the left must have the value of 7. It came from a back issue Original Logic Problems of February 2011.



Thanks for posting. We took another look at this puzzle. Our solution has the value of the Factory as 5 points, as clue 2 indicates. So I believe you are asking how we can determine the value of the card that requires players to rotate their hands to the left.

Clue 2 states "The Factory (which does not direct everyone to rotate their hands to the left), Babette's card, and the one that tells players to discard one card are three lowest-scoring cards, in some order." Thus, as you correctly point out, the Factory, Babette's card, and the one that tells players to discard one care are worth 1, 3, and 5 points, in some order.

Now, clue 5 reads "The card that directs each player to give his or her hand to the player on the left (which wasn't played by Babette) is worth fewer points than the Old Madeleine card." Now, from this clue alone, we can conclude that the card that directs players to rotate their hands left isn't worth 9 points, which is the most. If it were worth 1, 3, or 5 points, this hand would be one of the three hands mentioned in clue 2. But clue 2 tells us it isn't the Factory, and clue 5 tells us it isn't Babette's, so it couldn't be placed in clue 2. Thus, by the process of elimination, it must be worth 7 points.

I hope this explanation is helpful. Let us know if you have other questions. Happy solving!

2/16/2016 1:53:28 PM

dks123
dks123
Posts: 4
Thank you for the help. Your help in interpreting the clue is appreciated.

2/22/2016 11:51:30 PM

myq8472
myq8472
Posts: 6
Hi, I am new to Forums. I have tried for many years to get the hang of logic problems, with varying success. The book I am working on now, I pulled out the answers from the back, not to cheat, but see if I can do puzzles, and then follow the explanation. On the one I am working on, I am stumped, and from the Explanation from the answer. It sounds kinda silly, (don't ask)
The explanation says "The seeker who microwaved popcorn and repotted a plant (2) isn't the one who went hang gliding and weeded a garden (4); she's Kay in (1)

Clue 2 says "The Seeker who bought a fan (who is neither Cooper nor Merv) was instructed to either burn incense or flick a lighter. The seeker who microwaves popcorn (who didn't release balloons) was told to repot a plant.

and clue 4 Neither Rona (who didn't rake leaves) nor the seeker who was told to both seed a garden and hang glide is the one who flicked a lighter.

2/23/2016 5:10:32 PM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
myq8472 wrote:
Hi, I am new to Forums. I have tried for many years to get the hang of logic problems, with varying success. The book I am working on now, I pulled out the answers from the back, not to cheat, but see if I can do puzzles, and then follow the explanation. On the one I am working on, I am stumped, and from the Explanation from the answer. It sounds kinda silly, (don't ask)
The explanation says "The seeker who microwaved popcorn and repotted a plant (2) isn't the one who went hang gliding and weeded a garden (4); she's Kay in (1)

Clue 2 says "The Seeker who bought a fan (who is neither Cooper nor Merv) was instructed to either burn incense or flick a lighter. The seeker who microwaves popcorn (who didn't release balloons) was told to repot a plant.

and clue 4 Neither Rona (who didn't rake leaves) nor the seeker who was told to both seed a garden and hang glide is the one who flicked a lighter.


I haven't seen the particular puzzle before, but from your quotes, it sounds as if clue 2 equates "microwaves popcorn" with "repot a plant." So when the explanation says "...who microwaved popcorn and repotted a plant (2)" it means that the microwaving of the popcorn goes with repotting the plant, and it's from Clue 2 that we know this fact. So that much I follow (and I suspect you do, too).

I'm not sure if "seeding a garden" and "weeding a garden" are different, or are the same and there's a typo somewhere along the line. But if clue 4 deals with WEEDING a garden, for example (although it's typed now as SEEDING a garden), then Clue 4 means that someone was told to weed and garden and to hang-glide. So the explanation that someone isn't the person who went hang gliding and weeded a garden, with the number 4 in parentheses, means there's a person who went hang gliding and weeded a garden, and we know that from Clue 4.

Assuming that microwaving popcorn is a "fun activity" that someone likes to do, and hang-gliding is a completely different kind of "fun activity" that another person likes to do, and I guess even more importantly, assuming that repotting a plant has to do with gardening, and weeding a garden is a different aspect of gardening, then the person who repotted can't be the same person as the one who weeded.

It's a little tricky when I don't know what all the different "categories" are. Maybe there's a "food" category and an "activity" category as well as a "garden aspect" category; who knows? Not seeing the whole puzzle, I don't know how many people got ruled out by clues 2 and 4 to leave Kay in clue 1 as the microwave-etc person by process of elimination.

Sometimes the editors give us what I call "leaps of logic," where they say that something is so, or something can't be so, and I don't see it.

--
Amy

2/23/2016 10:51:47 PM

myq8472
myq8472
Posts: 6
Amy Lowenstein wrote:
myq8472 wrote:
Hi, I am new to Forums. I have tried for many years to get the hang of logic problems, with varying success. The book I am working on now, I pulled out the answers from the back, not to cheat, but see if I can do puzzles, and then follow the explanation. On the one I am working on, I am stumped, and from the Explanation from the answer. It sounds kinda silly, (don't ask)
The explanation says "The seeker who microwaved popcorn and repotted a plant (2) isn't the one who went hang gliding and weeded a garden (4); she's Kay in (1)

Clue 2 says "The Seeker who bought a fan (who is neither Cooper nor Merv) was instructed to either burn incense or flick a lighter. The seeker who microwaves popcorn (who didn't release balloons) was told to repot a plant.

and clue 4 Neither Rona (who didn't rake leaves) nor the seeker who was told to both seed a garden and hang glide is the one who flicked a lighter.


I haven't seen the particular puzzle before, but from your quotes, it sounds as if clue 2 equates "microwaves popcorn" with "repot a plant." So when the explanation says "...who microwaved popcorn and repotted a plant (2)" it means that the microwaving of the popcorn goes with repotting the plant, and it's from Clue 2 that we know this fact. So that much I follow (and I suspect you do, too).

I'm not sure if "seeding a garden" and "weeding a garden" are different, or are the same and there's a typo somewhere along the line. But if clue 4 deals with WEEDING a garden, for example (although it's typed now as SEEDING a garden), then Clue 4 means that someone was told to weed and garden and to hang-glide. So the explanation that someone isn't the person who went hang gliding and weeded a garden, with the number 4 in parentheses, means there's a person who went hang gliding and weeded a garden, and we know that from Clue 4.

Assuming that microwaving popcorn is a "fun activity" that someone likes to do, and hang-gliding is a completely different kind of "fun activity" that another person likes to do, and I guess even more importantly, assuming that repotting a plant has to do with gardening, and weeding a garden is a different aspect of gardening, then the person who repotted can't be the same person as the one who weeded.

It's a little tricky when I don't know what all the different "categories" are. Maybe there's a "food" category and an "activity" category as well as a "garden aspect" category; who knows? Not seeing the whole puzzle, I don't know how many people got ruled out by clues 2 and 4 to leave Kay in clue 1 as the microwave-etc person by process of elimination.

Sometimes the editors give us what I call "leaps of logic," where they say that something is so, or something can't be so, and I don't see it.

2/23/2016 10:59:24 PM

myq8472
myq8472
Posts: 6
Thanks for your reply Amy, I don't think it is a typo, but the "leap of logic" sounds plausible. The one thing I forgot to mention is that was the beginning of the explanation of the puzzle, so the leap of logic is most likely. I have gone on to other puzzles in this book, and I don't find such huge leaps. If there is something I can't find right away, It usually makes sense in a minute or so. By the way, this puzzle I asked about is where a "seeker" searches for the meaning of life. Kay and 4 friends are told to do a fire, wind and earth task. By the way, it is in Logic Problems December 2015, if your interested. Puzzle #7
Again much thanks!

Home » Logic Problem Exchange » Some help?





7.2.12.0