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7/30/2012 10:59:33 PM

Smalls aka Erin
Smalls aka Erin
Posts: 22
I got an old Dell logic problem book (from 1984, lol) from a used online bookstore several months ago but haven't worked many yet. I thought it would be fun to post one from this book if anyone wants to try it. This is in the section that they consider Hard Logic Problems. I am going to start on it now also. I do have the advantage of a graph. Sorry, I can't make graphs, but will do the best I can so that whoever wants to work on it can do so and hopefully not have trouble making a graph. After you get it worked, let me know and I will message the correct answers. I'm going to get started now. smile Scroll on down to get to the logic problem and clues. Good luck! Here it is:

The Basketball League (From Dell Book of Logic Problems 1984)

School Divisions of Summerset are:
Central
East
North
South
Suburban
West

Teams nicknames are:
Cardinals
Eagles
Falcons
Hawks
Orioles
Robins

Coaches are:
James
Kilmer
Lewis
Miller
Nichols
Osgood

Order in which each team placed:
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
___________SEE LOGIC PROBLEM AND CLUES BELOW_______________________________________________________________________
In this year's Summerset Elementary School Basketball League, each of the six teams entered played each of the others one time, and each compiled a different record (number of wins and losses) for the season. From the clues below, can you deduce the order in which the teams placed, each team's nickname (one is the Orioles), and its coach (one is Nichols)?
1. West Elementary lost only to the Robins, who are not coached by Lewis.
2. The Cardinals beat both South Elementary and the team coached by Kilmer but lost to the Falcons.
3. Suburban Elementary lost to the Hawks but defeated Osgood's team.
4. Central Elementary defeated Miller's squad.
5. Kilmer doesn't coach the Hawks.
6. North defeated James's team, which isn't the Cardinals.
7. West's nickname isn't the Hawks.
8. Neither Osgood nor James coaches South.
9. East's nickname isn't the Eagles.
*******************************************************
GRAPH INFORMATION BELOW:
Left side going down the graph:
Central
East
North
South
Suburban
West
__________
1st
2nd
3rd
4th
5th
6th
__________
James
Kilmer
Lewis
Miller
Nichols
Osgood
________
Then, the usual way the graph goes across the top. Hope that helps some. Good luck!

Smalls smile

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Smalls smile

7/31/2012 10:00:56 AM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
Thanks, Erin, for posting this. I'll make a 6x4 grid for myself, from one of my "generic" spreadsheets, and I'll make the order be the first thing on the left, because to me it's the most important variable, and the easiest one for me to work with. Boy, 1984 REALLY IS OLD. I've been getting Dell logic magazines since 2001, but 1984 is a whole 17 years before that!

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Amy

7/31/2012 7:45:46 PM

Purple Pisces
Purple Pisces
Posts: 878
Thanks for sharing this puzzle with us Erin! smile I printed it out and started it, but got stuck so had to take a break.

7/31/2012 11:49:20 PM

Smalls aka Erin
Smalls aka Erin
Posts: 22
Well, I did this one last night. Didn't take to long and I thought, "That's not really that hard." However, when I got done and looked at the answers, I had it all wrong somehow. Ugh!!! Think I'll work on a PennyPress one tonight, lol. If anybody does the basketball logic problem and needs the answers, just let me know and I'll msg them. smile

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Smalls smile

8/2/2012 8:24:28 AM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
This is, in a way, a "different" sort of puzzle, but I solved it correctly (private post to Smalls indicated that my answer was right -- I always need feedback). Keep trying it, Purple.

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Amy

8/2/2012 4:57:07 PM

Purple Pisces
Purple Pisces
Posts: 878
There's probably something staring me right in the face and I just don't see it. I'm stubborn though and will figure it out....hopefully! smile

8/2/2012 5:52:24 PM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
It's not quite THAT easy or anything. I made a grid where I let the place in the league be the column on the left. That was helpful to me; having time, or rankings, be on the left always means more to me than other things that might happen to be on the left in the book. (I've been known to make my own little "calendar of events" or whatever I might feel is necessary, on scrap paper, instead of what the magazine gives as the first column of certain puzzles.) Also, I quickly realized in this particular puzzle that the first-place team had a record of 5&0; last place 0&5; 2nd place 4&1, etc. I don't know if that helps you or not.

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Amy

8/2/2012 8:11:03 PM

Purple Pisces
Purple Pisces
Posts: 878
I did figure out the wins and losses as having to be first 5-0 down to last place 0-5. Your post validates that I'm at least on the right track! smile Thanks!

8/3/2012 7:19:12 PM

Purple Pisces
Purple Pisces
Posts: 878
Man this is a tough puzzle! I just want to make sure that I'm continuing on the right track. Looking at clue #1, all we can deduce is that West lost only 1 game, and that the Robins won at least 1. It's not telling us that since West lost only one game and that the Robins beat them the Robins must have a better record?!

8/3/2012 9:22:56 PM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
Actually, Purple, I DID come to that conclusion. If West lost only one game, and it was to the Robins, then the Robins must be better than the West team. Each team played only 5 games (one against each other team in the league), so the record of wins and losses could be only 5&0, 4&1, etc, etc, down to 0&5.

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Amy

8/3/2012 10:52:56 PM

Frances
Frances
Posts: 698
Why did the Robins do better than West? How do we know that the Robins win over West wasn't their ONLY win and that they lost their other four games and are 1-4? Or they weren't 2-3 or 3-2?

8/4/2012 10:44:54 AM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
Maybe I can't prove it, but when I made the assumption that the Robins beat everybody, I was then able to solve the puzzle.

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Amy

8/4/2012 11:31:09 AM

Frances
Frances
Posts: 698
Have I've been reading this logic all wrong? Do the winning and losing mentioned in the clues refer in individual games or to the order the teams placed? I can't solve it if it's the former, but can if it's the latter.

8/4/2012 1:52:40 PM

Purple Pisces
Purple Pisces
Posts: 878
Frances that's the conclusion I came to! I could not get anywhere with the puzzle when I was reading the clues in terms of individual games, but could solve it when reading the clues as ranks placed. After reading Amy's answer to my above post about assuming the Robins were first I finally started to look at the puzzle in a different light. I sent smalls my answers, so I still don't know if I got it right, but I think I was making this puzzle way harder than it needed to be!

8/4/2012 7:22:59 PM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
I guess a LITTLE bit of "proof," if you will, that the Robins are in first place: The introduction said everyone won a different number of games, and there were no tied records. So if West beat almost everybody, but West lost to the Robins, West has to have a 4&1 record. If West lost to the Robins, it would boggle my mind to think that some OTHER team than the Robins, had a 5&0 record. So it seemed "obvious" to me at that point, that the Robins are the top team, with the 5&0 record.

If there could have been tied records, then sure, the Robins could in theory have beaten nobody except West. They'd have a 1&4 record, and some other teams would have similarly lousy records. There would have been no team at all, in that case, with a 5&0 record, because the next best thing would be the West team's record of 4&1.

There's no way that a team is 5&0, unless that team is the one which beat the very good West team, namely, the Robins.

Then once you start thinking along those lines, the rest eventually falls into place.

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Amy

8/4/2012 9:00:03 PM

Purple Pisces
Purple Pisces
Posts: 878
Amy sent me the solution so I could check my answers and I solved the puzzle right! For me the confusion was with thinking the clues were geared towards individual match-ups. One I figured out that the clues were telling us the overall records and that we just had to place them it made the puzzle a lot easier to solve.

8/5/2012 1:00:42 AM

Smalls aka Erin
Smalls aka Erin
Posts: 22
Amy and Purple both got it right. This was a challenging one. smile

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Smalls smile

8/5/2012 1:20:31 PM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
And I would say the individual matchups give you a clue to the standings, especially when you know there were no tied records.

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Amy

8/8/2012 8:48:22 AM

Smalls aka Erin
Smalls aka Erin
Posts: 22
Frances also got it correct. Like I said, my answers were all messed up. I guess I misunderstood on all the rankings. smile

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Smalls smile

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