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10/21/2012 7:49:14 PM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
On Page 55 of the December, 2012 "Dell Logic Lover's Logic Problems," there is a 3-star puzzle called "Losing It," about a woman who loses weight.

I take exception to the wording of Clue #13 of that puzzle. It says, "Edith weighed herself at least two times in between the day she ate a bagel and the day she went for a swim." That implies to me, that the day of the bagel, had to be BEFORE the day of the swim. I went around in circles before finally peeking in the back of the magazine, when it became apparent that the day of the bagel was was actually AFTER the day of the swim.

I think that, to be a fair clue, Clue #13 should have read "Edith weighed herself at least two times in between the day she ate a bagel and the day she went for a swim, IN SOME ORDER." (ALL CAPS mine, to make it clear what should be added.)

I hope if this puzzle is ever repeated in the future, that the added wording will appear on Clue 13.
edited by Amy-in-PA on 10/21/2012

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Amy

10/22/2012 4:12:59 AM

creamchz3@aol.com
creamchz3@aol.com
Posts: 947
I would take exception to the fact that it's always a woman that needs to lose weight! CC Sometimes it's just you and me Amy, like the beginning of "The Forum"! CC
edited by creamchz3@aol.com on 10/22/2012

10/22/2012 9:34:26 AM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
I know what you mean, but it might not always be a woman who needs to lose weight, in the logic problems. Sometimes it's 5 people who lose 5 different amounts, and the names vary between women and men. Well, eventually maybe the editors will see this post and find a way to change their file so that the next time they show this puzzle, a few years from now, it will have that important phrase in it.

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Amy

10/23/2012 11:49:02 PM


Guest
Meh, I don't know, Ames. It says between the days. I doesn't really give an implied order. The only fact you really get there is 2 weighing times between the two.

That said, maybe you're right in that it would make it an easier puzzle. God knows I've wrangled with plenty of little things like that that can change a puzzle.

10/24/2012 10:07:23 PM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
The thing is, Dark Horse, there are so many puzzles where the clues DO include that phrase "in some order." So I was sidetracked by the fact that this particular puzzle DID NOT include that phrase.

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Amy

10/25/2012 1:11:13 AM

Semipro
Semipro
Posts: 292
Amy, without having the whole puzzle to provide the context, I agree that the original sentence may be misleading. However, your suggested rewrite, "Edith weighed herself at least two times in between the day she ate a bagel and the day she went for a swim, IN SOME ORDER," isn't quite right, either, because it doesn't make clear that the things that aren't necessarily in the order in which they're mentioned are the days. Usually the clues go like this: "Marian put strawberry jam and marmalade on the corn muffin and the French bread, in some order." So "in some order" means "maybe respectively and maybe not." For it to make sense, there have to be at least four things. The bagel day and the swim day are only two things.

10/25/2012 9:15:49 AM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
The funny thing is, Semipro, that even though your logic makes sense, I'm pretty sure I've seen some puzzles where days are involved and the "in some order" phrase is also involved, hinting that the occasions could be in either order, not necessarily the "forwards" order one would otherwise think of. Can you think of a better phrase that would hint the order isn't necessarily forwards? If so, that might be what I should suggest to the editors for the next publication of the same puzzle.
edited by Amy-in-PA on 10/25/2012

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Amy

10/27/2012 11:30:35 PM

Amy Lowenstein
Amy Lowenstein
Posts: 1599
I just saw another puzzle in the same December 2012 magazine, this puzzle being on page 82 and being called "Have you Rented a Ford Lately?" about someone who rents a lot of Harrison Ford movies. Clue 12 of this puzzle says "She watched Blade Runner and Raiders of the Lost Ark no more than three days apart, in some order."

So this clue goes exactly the way I wished that clue in "Losing It" had gone -- putting in the phrase "in some order" to clue one in to the fact that Blade Runner didn't necessarily have to come before Raiders of the Lost Ark.

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Amy

10/27/2012 11:59:55 PM

Semipro
Semipro
Posts: 292
Amy, the example you found, I believe would read better if the phrase were moved, like this: "She watched BR and ROTLA, in some order, no more than three days apart." Other than that, I don't object to using "in some order" to refer to time (which thing came first?) instead of how items are paired (did Violet buy the sunflowers and Lily buy the roses, or the other way round?). I just don't think adding "in some order" to the bagel/swim sentence does a clear enough job of telling the solver what to watch out for. That's a hard sentence to rewrite. So far, I haven't thought of a way to do it that I like.

If you substitute other events for the events in the puzzle, it gets easier to see that using "in some order" that way doesn't sound natural. Maybe "Norma taught school for three years between the birth of her daughter and the birth of her son, in some order."

3/25/2014 10:52:22 AM

TigerSpace
TigerSpace
Posts: 2
Amy, You are a very thoughtful & insightful Lady. Amy & Semipro, possibly a little longer phrasing: "Edith ate a bagel and went swimming on different days; in between, she weighed herself at least twice." I'm a new fan of the old (last decade) Penny Press "Original Logic Problems" which I'm occasionally finding in a discount store... PLUS I'm struggling with finding the OLD (hint/process-based) version of "Solving Table Puzzles" which was pre-Dell...





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